Mastercard's Ginger Siegel on Real Ways Small Business Owners Can Improve Pay Equity Policies
From encouraging work-life balance to eliminating compensation biases.
“Make sure that each employee is aware of expectations and those are equal expectations for equal jobs.”
—Ginger Siegel, North America Small Business Lead, Mastercard
Small businesses have been hit hard by the coronavirus pandemic—and women-owned small businesses have been hit even harder. According to the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, women-owned small businesses have less optimistic revenue, investment, and hiring plans when compared to male-owned small businesses. Still, even despite these challenges, there are a number of impactful ways small business owners—even those with limited resources—can help close the gender pay gap.
To help tackle all your burning questions about how small business owners should be assessing equal pay policies, measuring compensation biases, and retaining working mothers, we tapped Ginger Siegel, the North America small business lead at Mastercard to answer your inquiries in real-time. During a virtual mentor session at our Equal Pay Day Summit presented by Mastercard, she shared some #realtalk on real ways that small business owners can improve their equal-pay policies.
In case you missed it, we’re sharing a few of the Q&As from this eye-opening Equal Pay Day mentor session. Read on for Siegel’s sage advice.
Q: As a small business owner, how should I assess my pay policies and procedures?
“When you think about the assessment of your wages and what you're going to pay, it really should be done in the context of overall employee policy. You want to think through things that are of major importance to employees. Monetary compensation is one, but it's not the only factor. You want to ensure that you create an employee policy that takes into account issues like maintaining a balance between work and family, reducing job stress, and looking at the type of health and retirement benefits you offer. Then, as you structure your performance reviews, make sure that each employee is aware of expectations and those are equal expectations for equal jobs.”
Q: How should I communicate pay equity processes internally?
“Making sure your organization has a very clear view on how you've established jobs, how you've established duties, and how you've established overall functions is critically important. You should also review employee compensation on a regular basis and separate compensation reviews from performance reviews. As a small business owner, you need to understand how your compensation is going to be built in place to provide equal pay for equal work, disclose salary ranges for different positions and levels, and, of course, advocate for your people, encouraging them to be open and honest when these discussions take place.”
Q: It's no secret that women are exiting the workforce when they have children. What policies and procedures should I put in place to prevent this from happening?
“We know discriminatory hiring practices and promotion decisions that prevent women from gaining leadership roles and highly paid positions are actually sustaining the gender pay gap. And it's not only the pay gap—but it's also the opportunity gap. During COVID, 305 million full-time jobs have been lost, many of them held by women, so this issue is critically important. As you're building out your business’ policies, ensure that there's a lot of focus on helping female employees who may be taking more of the burden in terms of the home life, by creating a work-life balance to ensure that your female workers can have the access to help they need and can also have some flexibility.”
Q: How can I actually measure compensation differences to see if there's a bias?
“In order to ensure that there isn't bias, this can't be a one-and-done situation. There has to be a constant constant focus on looking at your pay, looking at all of your employees, and making sure that these things are consistently held equal. It really starts with job descriptions and really ensuring that your job descriptions are not based on who has the job but based on the job.”
If you’re experiencing FOMO and want to know the answers to all the questions Ginger spoke to in this session, you can join C&C Insiders to get access to all of the mentor sessions, workshops, panels, and keynotes from our Equal Pay Day Summit and all of our past events. (Yes, you read that right!).
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“Don’t Take the First Offer” and More Negotiating Advice to Close the Gender Pay Gap From Jennifer Justice
“Pay us and we will make the world a better place.”
Photo: Pexels
Here’s a startling statistic: 20% of women never negotiate. To put that into context, a woman who doesn’t negotiate her starting salary upon graduating from college will lose between $650,000 and $1 million over the course of a 45-year career, according to Harvard Business Review. In order to close the gender pay gap, we need to narrow the gender negotiation gap. However, we know that’s easier said than done.
For tips on how to negotiate, we turned to none other than Jennifer Justice, a former music attorney who has orchestrated major deals for artists like Beyoncé and Rihanna. Justice (and yes, that’s her real name) has spent much of her career working to close the gender pay gap and even founded The Justice Dept., a management, strategy, and legal firm that works almost exclusively with women, in order to help more women succeed in business and get paid what they’re worth.
Ahead, Justice reveals how she’s navigated negotiations as a woman in a traditionally male-dominated industry and shares her top three tips for getting what you want once you’re at the negotiating table.
CREATE & CULTIVATE: You’ve worked with some of the hardest-working women in the music industry, including Beyoncé. What have you learned from negotiating deals for some of the most successful women in the business?
JENNIFER JUSTICE: I have learned that women do much better having female advocates. We think differently, we assess risk differently, we go through different life changes, so we need our advocates to understand how we think. We aren’t brought up with business vernacular, and female advocates understand this. We need to embrace our changes and find the advocates who understand this about us.
Can you tell us about the first major deal you negotiated for a female professional in the music industry? What went right and what went wrong? When did you first notice the glaring gender pay gap in the industry?
I was representing women and men in the industry. I did a deal with a major publishing company for an entry-level director executive who was male—he was offered off the bat $130k. He hadn’t signed anyone yet (ie. brought in any revenue) and they were paying him for potential.
I then did a deal for the senior director for the same department—female—and her first offer was $90k. I was outraged. Why was this okay? Not only with the company, but in general? I fought for her and fought for her and they raised it to $100k but said she didn’t have enough experience yet.
So moral of the story was: men get hired on potential and women for experience. This is still true to this day and there is a ton of research to back it up.
“Try to do business with as many women as you can. Build each other up so we have our own table instead of asking for a seat at a table you don’t even really want to be at.”
How have you navigated negotiations as a woman in a traditionally male-dominated industry? Have you found that men in the room treat you differently? How have you overcome that and earned the respect you have today? What advice can you share?
As a woman, I had to repeat myself all the time and be relentless to get what I wanted. Men definitely treated me differently, from flirting, to calling me “kiddo,” “sweetie,” and “honey,” to total sexual harassment, offering me the deal if I gave them what they wanted.
But I didn’t let it stop me. I just kept going and getting the best deals I could. I was relentless and probably got my way mostly because not only was I right, they couldn’t get me to stop.I nagged them to death. After a while, I was experienced enough with enough years and reputation behind me that I didn’t have to use those tactics, but I shouldn’t have had to in the first place.
My advice: be relentless and call it out if you see the same misogynistic behavior. Try to do business with as many women as you can. Build each other up so we have our own table instead of asking for a seat at a table you don’t even really want to be at.
Negotiating—especially for money—takes confidence. Is this something that comes naturally to you or did you have to work on it? How did you develop that skill set? What advice can you share on cultivating confidence?
It’s always easy negotiating for money for someone else. It’s not easy doing it for yourself—even for me. There is a saying, any lawyer that represents themselves has a fool for a client. Same applies to you—try to have someone else negotiate. If you can’t or can’t afford it, you need to practice, you need to pretend you are negotiating for your kids—because that is who you represent, ultimately—not your job, but your family or whatever else you really love. Do it for them and it will make it so much easier!
How do you determine your worth so you can fight for what you deserve as well as for what your clients deserve in a negotiation? What tips can you share for others trying to determine their worth before walking into a negotiation?
My worth is my experience. What takes me 15 minutes could take others hours. I should get paid more for that and I do. I look at the market rates, my experience, my expertise, and I ask others how they charge. I do the same for my clients. Women do a lot of “free” work and give a lot of “free” advice. We need to charge for it—all of it—and really embrace that we are worth it. So you can have an hour of my time, after that, I deserve to get paid for my advice.
“More money in women’s hands means more money in the economy—we control 80% of the purchasing power. Pay us and we will make the world a better place. ”
You’ve spent much of your career working to close the gender pay gap. What still needs to change in order for us to level the playing field?
We all need to acknowledge that it exists, first of all. Don’t say, “Oh, we have a lot of women at our company—over 50%.” Having women at the company isn’t the issue. It’s having women on the board (more than two), having women in the C-suite (more than two of them) in decision making and revenue-generating roles where their decisions are heard and implemented because they are running the companies. Then we all need to make it happen and keep it that way.
To me, there is an urgency. We should fight for it because we are 50% of the population. Equal pay is necessary on a human level, but also on a financial level. Companies do better when they have women on their boards, women in the exec decision-making roles, and more money in women’s hands means more money in the economy—we control 80% of the purchasing power. Pay us and we will make the world a better place.
We can only imagine that you’ve negotiated hundreds of deals at this point, so we’d love to know: What are your top three negotiation tips? How do you enter a negotiation with confidence and secure the deal?
The first tip is to actually negotiate. Don’t take the first offer. Second, do your homework. Ask to see what the market is for what you are negotiating, ask people, be prepared. Third, understand your goals and what you want. Know what you will give and what you absolutely must have so if you don’t get it, you can walk away.
This story was originally published on March 31, 2020, and has since been updated.
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Good Girls Revolt: How 4 Powerful Career Women Asked for Raises
In honor of boss women everywhere.
Have you sunk into watching "Good Girls Revolt?"
On Friday, Amazon released their newest binge-worthy show based on Lynn Povich’s 2012 book The Good Girls Revolt, about a gender-discrimination lawsuit filed by her and her peers at Newsweek in 1970. The series follows a group of young female researchers at "News of the Week," who ask for equal treatment. (Sound familiar? It should.) GGR operates in the past and present, addressing the on-going struggle of female employees and their inability to out-earn male colleagues-- or simply earn an equal wage.
In the pilot, Nora Ephron (played by Grace Gummer) questions why she and other female researchers are scrambling over research assignments that will be handed off to the men. "All that's left to do is make yourself indispensable," says peer Patti Robinson (played by Genevieve Angelson) when Ephron first joins the team.
So in honor of good girls revolting and equal pay, here are 4 boss women who have asked for more money, more flexibility, and more respect.
LILLY LEDBETTER
“I went over and interviewed with Goodyear in 1978, and I worked for Goodyear tire company for 19 years before I found out that the males were making 40 percent more than I was making for working the same job. Someone left me a little torn sheet of paper and tipped me off anonymously, listing my base pay and their base pay. The first thing that popped into my mind when I saw it was how much I had lost on overtime. I thought about my retirement and my 401(k) and my social security, because what you earn is what determines your retirement. I was just humiliated and embarrassed, to say the least, that a major corporation could do me that way. The company I worked for told me when I [was] hired there: ‘If you discuss your pay, you will not have a job here.’ So no one ever discussed their pay. I never knew. I had no idea how much someone else was making … After I got that tip, I filed a complaint with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) and the wheels went into motion with the company.” — Self, January 2016
MICHELLE OBAMA
“I took my last job [before my husband entered the White House] because of my boss’s reaction to my family situation. I didn’t have a babysitter, so I took Sasha right in there with me in her crib and her rocker. I was still nursing, so I was wearing my nursing shirt. I told my boss, ‘This is what I have: two small kids. My husband is running for the U.S. Senate. I will not work part time. I need flexibility. I need a good salary. I need to be able to afford babysitting. And if you can do all that, and you’re willing to be flexible with me because I will get the job done, I can work hard on a flexible schedule.’ I was very clear. And he said yes to everything.” —Parade, June 2014
SHERYL SANDBERG
“When I was negotiating with Facebook’s founder and CEO Mark Zuckerberg for my compensation, he made me an offer that I thought was fair. We had been having dinner several nights a week for more than a month and a half, discussing Facebook’s mission and his vision for the future. I was ready to accept the job. No, I was dying to accept the job. My husband, Dave, kept telling me to negotiate, but I was afraid of doing anything that might botch the deal. I could play hardball, but then maybe Mark would not want to work with me. Was it worth it when I knew that ultimately I was going to accept the offer? I concluded it was not. But right before I was about to say yes, my exasperated brother-in-law, Marc Bodnick, blurted out, ‘Damn it, Sheryl! Why are you going to make less than any man would make to do the same job?’
"Was it worth it when I knew that ultimately I was going to accept the offer?"
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My brother-in-law didn’t know the details of my deal. His point was simply that no man at my level would consider taking the first offer. This was motivating. I went back to Mark and said that I couldn’t accept, but I prefaced it by telling him, ‘Of course you realize that you’re hiring me to run your deal teams, so you want me to be a good negotiator. This is the only time you and I will ever be on opposite sides of the table.’ Then I negotiated hard, followed by a nervous night wondering if I had blown it. But Mark called me the next day. He resolved the gap by improving my offer, extending the terms of my contract from four to five years and allowing me to buy into the company as well. His creative solution not only closed the deal, but also set us up for a longer-term alignment of interests.” — Lean In, March 2013
GLORIA STEINEM
“The most ironic that comes to mind is that Time magazine asked me to write an essay about the early women’s movement. It was a long time ago — it was maybe in the ’70s. First of all, they asked me to do it because they didn’t have a woman on staff. Secondly, I did it under deadline because it never occurred to me that they would pay me less than they did men writing the same essay. Time had a page in each issue in which there was a personal essay. When my agent got the check, he told me that I was getting paid less than men who wrote the same essay. So, I wrote the editor of Time and complained and he sent me a Gucci purse. I took the purse back to Gucci because I needed the money and tried to get cash for it and I couldn’t.” —Fusion, December 2015
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